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Black Ops
Egglick
Posts: 8,483
Registered: ‎01-28-2004

12 Warning Signs of Fascism

12 Warning Signs of Fascism

1. Exuberant nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic images, slogans and symbols - National flags are seen everywhere in public display. Territorial aggression is explained to be mere destiny -- an unbidden greatness thrust upon the nation by history.

It is this burden of unique responsibility that now raises the fascist state above all previous constraint, no longer bound by international obligations, treaties or law.



2. Enemies Identified

This national cause is identified as unity against enemies - The people are rallied around a unifying patriotism directed against some common threat: communists, liberals, a racial, ethnic or religious minority, intellectuals, homosexuals, terrorists, etc.

The state's message is sometimes couched in an easily recognized religious theme. Amazingly, this language is used even when the full context of the teaching shows the meaning to be diametrically opposed. Any dissent is "siding with the enemy", and therefore treasonous.



3. Rights Disappear

Disdain for human and political rights - Fascist regimes foster an artificial climate of fear by intentionally amplifying stress and anxiety. Citizens naturally feel a strong need for security and are easily persuaded to ignore abuses in the name of safety. The few still willing to question are met with bullying and smear campaigns of intimidation.

Legislative bodies, if still in existence at all, are cowed into rubber-stamp submission with occasional ceremonial opposition. The judiciary tends to become activist in support of state views. The public often looks away, or even enthusiastically approves as rights are stripped away.

The concept of the individual inevitably yields ground, exchanged for the promised safety of the all-powerful state.



4. Secrecy Demanded

Obsession with secrecy and national security - The workings of government become increasingly hidden. Questioning of authority is discouraged at all levels of society. From office talk at the water cooler up through the entire apparatus of rule, guarded speech and secrecy become ends in themselves.

Troubling questions are muted and entire areas of scrutiny are placed out of bounds by simply invoking "national security".



5. Military Glorified

Supremacy of the military - The military establishment receives a disproportionate share of government resources, even as pressing domestic needs are neglected. Individual soldiers and military culture are glamorized and made constantly visible.

This provides both an object for public glorification, as well as sharp warning to possibly restless citizens that the power of the state stands close at hand, ready to use its great potential for violence.



6. Corporations Shielded

Corporate power is protected - Typically, a segment of the business elite plays a major role in bringing fascists to national leadership, often from an unsavory obscurity. This marriage of big money and raw violence is often considered by historians to be the hallmark and backbone of fascism.

As these business-government-military interests meld, the significant threat of organized labor is clearly recognized. Labor unions and their support organizations are either co-opted successfully or ruthlessly suppressed and eliminated as soon as possible.



7. Corruption Unchecked

Rampant cronyism and corruption - Fascist states maintain power through this relatively small group of associates, mutually appointing each other to interlocking and rotating positions in government, business and the military.

With this degree of control, they make full use of both official secrecy and the ready threat of state violence to insulate themselves from any meaningful criticism. They are not accountable and are shielded from scrutiny in a way unthinkable in a democratic society.



8. Media Controlled

Controlled mass media - Sometimes the media are controlled directly by clumsy government functionaries. At other times, sympathetic corporate media insiders shape the themes indirectly, and therefor more skillfully. Image regularly trumps content as the "news" is presented breathlessly and with flashy stage effects.

A practiced formula of tenacious repetition brings even the most absurd lie into acceptance over time. By design, the very language itself and the coloration employed will push alternate views "out of the mainstream".

The terms of any remaining debate are narrowly defined to the state's advantage, making it easy to marginalize a truly differing perspective. Censorship and "self-censorship", especially in wartime, is common.



9. Rampant Sexism

Rampant sexism - Governments of fascist states tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Traditional gender roles are made even more rigid and exaggerated. Condemnation of abortion and a virulent homophobia are commonly built into broad policy.



10. Intellectual Bullying

Disdain for intellectuals - Fascist society tends to create an environment of extreme hostility to critical thought in general, and to academics in particular.

Ideologically driven "science" is elevated and lavishly funded, while any expression not in line with the state view is at first ignored, then challenged, then ridiculed and finally stamped out.

It is not uncommon for academics to be pressured to attack the work of their insufficiently patriotic peers. Writings are censored; teachers are fired and arrested. Free artistic expression in new works is openly attacked, and existing works deemed unpatriotic are often publicly destroyed.



11. Militarized Police

Obsession with crime and punishment - Fascist society is often willing to overlook police abuses and forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. Long jail sentences for clearly political offenses, torture and then assassination are at first uncomfortably tolerated, and then start to pile up to become the norm.

Often a national police force is given virtually unlimited power to snoop through the civilian population. Networks of surveillance and informers are employed, both for actual intelligence gathering and also as a means to keep neighbors and co-workers isolated and mistrustful of each other.



12. Elections Stolen

Fraudulent elections - In the disordered time as fascists are rising to power, the electoral arena becomes increasingly confusing, corrupted, and manipulated.

There is rising public cynicism and distrust over what are widely believed to be phony elections manipulated by moneyed influence, obvious media bias, smear campaigns, ballot tampering, judicial interference, intimidation, or outright assassination of potential opposition. Fascists in power have been known to use this disorder as the rationale to delay elections indefinitely.

From http://www.mvp-seattle.org
Black Ops
jwhx
Posts: 12,487
Registered: ‎03-02-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Wow. That's a really really long post.
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Veteran Rifleman
One Fan To Another
Posts: 2,657
Registered: ‎01-09-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

     While all of those warning signs are valid for fascism we now need valid arguments for their comparison to the U.S. or it will have no validity
Black Ops
Egglick
Posts: 8,483
Registered: ‎01-28-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

The entire post is a comparison. Do I need to explain each part like I would to my 6 year old nephew?
790
Green Cadet
790
Posts: 448
Registered: ‎02-05-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

I can't believe you were allowed to post this total bullshIt,
 
It's people like you who started the 2000 bug scare.  This is so stupid and completly unfounded, it makes me sick thinking that there are actually people dumb enough to believe what your peddling. 
 
You responded to a post asking if you need to explain it to us like you did your 6 yr old nephew.  Well, I guess that makes me six as well because you make absolutly no valid comparisons except edited images and empty phrases.
 
And those 12 signs (nevermind thier discription or so called proof written under each sign which is also made up) are completly made up,  You could've just as easily called it the 20 signs or whatever you wanted to for this piece of fiction.  Don't you see a problem with that? 
 
This post is like reading a something in the newspaper, writtin and filled with false statements and twists on words just to get a reaction.  If I have the time later (I'm at work now) I will personally pick apart each and every one of the 12 items on the list.  But not now, I'm have become sick (with disgust and laughter) after reading this shIt your shoveling.

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Delta Force
Trogdor
Posts: 11,505
Registered: ‎01-07-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

I think it would have been better to title that "Twelve Signs that Bush is Fascist and Ignoring Similarities Between Bush/Cheney and Clinton/Gore, as Determined by a Biased Source that is Pissed that Bush/Cheney Won Yet Again." That's a little long, granted, but to say that the US is becoming fascist and it's all Bush's fault is pretty ignorant.

I liked how anti-abortion and anti-homosexual are somehow fascist ideals, which of course means that being pro-abortion and pro-homosexual is to be enlightened. I can take the same opinion and say that anti-religion is fascist (Hitler and Stalin were clearly against quite a few religions), while being a devout Christian is desirable.

Big business vs. Intellectuals is an interesting debate. Whom would you rather have running the nation: a large business, or a bunch of intellectuals? Karl Marx was an intellectual that felt he had the perfect system of government. We've all seen how well that worked out in practice. Big corporations have plenty of problems, but at least they have shown the capacity to run efficiently and earn money. Intellectuals like to look at theoretical situations and come up with plans that work well in their models, only to discover that they overlooked an influence in their model and the whole thing comes crashing down. (I voted Perot in 1992, by the way.)

My favorite, though, has to be the media - the attempts to control it and such. Let's see, we have numerous instances of anti-Bush people posting fictional accounts of Bush actions. The same happened against Kerry, true, but not nearly as many high-profile publications I would say. In the meantime, the media continues to be very Liberal, and they hate when things that they disagree with get pushed through. So they distort the truth, post misleading information, all in the hopes of strengthening support for their "cause". Whatever. The media these days is as politically neutral as Kerry and Bush, and they try to spread their own personal agenda and propoganda much more effectively than any political party.
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jdh77
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎11-06-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Thank you Egglick, for a bit of fresh air!

The truth sucks, or maybe hurts, but TRUTH will always be.

Somewhere in my archives I have a similar list of, I believe it was, "12 Signposts to Slavery," and while they are in a similar vein, they were completely different from this list of "12 Warning Signs of Fascism."

I am a student of ???, 'Political Power' I suppose we would call it. I have been seriously worried and concerned about this great country of ours for a long time now. (Measured in 10's of years, oh Hell! Since 1960.) The number one problem seems to be that the 'Sheeple' are asleep, couch potatoes, Joe Sixpack, mesmerized by all the entertainment, and totally bamboozled by the high degree of 'brainwash,' politely called propaganda they are on a consistent diet of, AND are completely oblivious to! More than once, attempting to shed a little enlightenment, I've had more than one redneck, on more than one occasion, heatedly say something like "I love my country! What are you some kind of Communist or something?" To which I would reply, "Nope! In fact right the opposite. Sometimes instead of numbing my brain with alcohol I actually do some homework. That is I question the status quo." The response is usually something like "huh?"

The problems that face us did not happen overnight. The problem(s) are not Demopublican/Republocrat. (Those are just the two sides of the same dirty, corrupt political coin.)

Egglick, for some of the people who do not understand where we are coming from, I would like to share an excellent primer of, from where we do come. Whew! How'd I get into this? 8>) The same little book that lit my fire, I now recommend to others. "None Dare CAll It Conspiracy" by Gary North. Printed in about 1971 or 1972, although dated, it is just as true as when written. One thing I liked about the book is that Gary does NOT try to tell you what to think! He merely suggests FACTS (which can be readily proven by looking things up in newspapers, etc.) and invites you to judge for yourself. The paperback I've found on the internet and purchased as giveaways (Ever loan a book and REALLY expect to get it back?) 8>)

With regards to our friends who want to take exception, I would like to share with them and also make a suggestion.

Socrates was, we are told, in his end days working to prove up a theory of his which said something to the effect: "people in general tend to mistake their 'beliefs' for 'fact.' In other words that which we have been imbued with, no matter how we came to that 'thinking,' we tend to believe as gospel. Contrast that with a 'fact,' that is with a thing which can be proven scientifically or empirically.

To anyone who will email me I will send a mind blowing CD (requires flash) completely free of charge. (I'll even pay the postage.) This offer is to U.S. types. Oh well, O.K. the rest of the world can contact me and we'll see what we can do, no promises though. This is 1st come, 1st served and is truly a limited supply as I'm just an individual.
(This is out of my own pocket, a shallow one at that!) You can legally copy and distribute as you see fit, or not.

This is too long already... I'll close with "We can agree, to be able to disagree, without being disagreeable, can we not!? Our attitudes towards others speaks volumes about our character, right?

'til later,
john "jdh77 at hal-pc.org"

P.S. We'll be back another day to continue...
Delta Force
Trogdor
Posts: 11,505
Registered: ‎01-07-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism


jdh77 wrote:

The truth sucks, or maybe hurts, but TRUTH will always be.

The problems that face us did not happen overnight. The problem(s) are not Demopublican/Republocrat. (Those are just the two sides of the same dirty, corrupt political coin.)

One thing I liked about the book is that Gary does NOT try to tell you what to think! He merely suggests FACTS (which can be readily proven by looking things up in newspapers, etc.) and invites you to judge for yourself.

I took an excerpt of the portions of your post that I think are the most pertinent. I think you actually gave too much credit to Egglick's post. If it were politically neutral, I would have no problem with it. The fact that most of the images contain Bush, Cheney, or some other Republican makes it quite clearly NOT neutral.

To state that it is "truth" is simply laughable. I gave a great example of the bias which the referenced document contains. It is all about presentation. That article is as "true" as Fahrenheit 9/11, which is to say that it presents a very limited view of actual events. It doesn't lie straight out, but the context is clearly anti-Bush and anti-Republican. Many of the problems in that list apply equally well to the Democrat perspective, and as you point out both sides are completely corrupt.

If the post had been a statement of "the US has a lot of problems and we're heading down the wrong path, and here are some neutral views as to how the US is becoming more fascist", then I would agree with it completely. I mentioned on numerous occasions that this past election was really about figuring out whom I thought would **bleep** things up less, and neither option was appealing. Bush was just *slightly* more appealing to me than Kerry, and the reaction of Kerry supporters is as good as the reaction of a redneck calling you a communist.

For what it's worth, there are *plenty* of rednecks in the world. As Jeff Foxworthy likes to say, we've all got redneck attributes; some of us are just a little more redneck than others. Sitting in front of a TV chugging beer and voting with half a brain is typical behavior of probably 30 to 50% of Americans. Don't tell me that you think many of the people leeching off of the Medicaid system actually thought about things more than to wonder who would make their leeching easier?

According to exit polls, Medicaid level household incomes ($30000 or less) were about 60% in support of Kerry. Either no rednecks are on Medicaid (I greatly doubt this), or else the 40% were all rednecks (again I doubt this), or more likely there are plenty of rednecks in support of both sides. And for "redneck" let's also state that it includes white trash, black trash, [insert race] trash, etc. - you know, the ones that can't clean their house, don't mow their yard (and have dandylions for a lawn), have piece of shit cars that barely run and make a terrible racket, etc. They also all have at least one TV, probably several, and they likely have cable as well.

Anyway, to sum it all up, let's just throw this out there. My wife is Democrat, and if you really drill down to it, she's Democrat because her parents are Democrat. How is that any better than religion? I at least gave serious thought to voting for Kerry, but in the end he just didn't have anything other than presentation to try to win my vote. It would be like making a purchase decision solely off of marketing and advertisements. He *might* have been a better president than Bush, but watching him speak and listening to his claims just made me feel that he was at least as much of a puppet as Bush. That just left me with my own "religion", as I was raised in a Republican household. All things being equal, I stuck with that.
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Veteran Rifleman
One Fan To Another
Posts: 2,657
Registered: ‎01-09-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism



egglick wrote:
The entire post is a comparison. Do I need to explain each part like I would to my 6 year old nephew?


     AAAHAHAHAHA!  THE REPLIES are why!  I TOLD you, Egglick, I TOLD you!!!  You can't win an argument with ideas.
Black Ops
Egglick
Posts: 8,483
Registered: ‎01-28-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

I'm still waiting to be shown how every single portion isn't somehow relavant to what's going on in our country today. I knew that I would be viciously attacked before I even posted this---that's what people do when they're in denial and hear opposing viewpoints.

Aside from the pictures, not once is there a mention of Bush, Kerry, Democrats, or Republicans.....simply the people currently in power.

Watch as it becomes more and more of a reality folks. I don't post these sorts of things to stir up anger or hostility, I do it to educate people. Whether or not they want to open their eyes or at least think about some of the things being said is up to them.
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cray85
Posts: 43
Registered: ‎06-22-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Egglick, I may think Bush and his gang is intolerant but I don't think they're fascists. Still, your post does contains more then a grain of truth. It would be a good idea to illustrate some examples though (Joe Sixpack wouldn't be aware of them), and you haven't done that. Also, I disagree with some of your language. You use the the term "corporate power" as if all corporations use false accounting and shady political lobbyists to achieve their goals. That's a bit of an exaggeration. What is true is that Bush is under the sway of certain corporations which is why he lads them with pork. But that's true of many democrats as well.... (btw, I somehow sense that you're against out-sourcing and tend to believe in the twin fallacies of "lump of capital" and "lump of labor").
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Conspirator
Posts: 71
Registered: ‎06-11-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Is it typical of fascist governments to advocate tolerance for those identified as the "common threat"? Do fascist governments always pursue the prosecution of those who aim violence at the "enemy"?

790
Green Cadet
790
Posts: 448
Registered: ‎02-05-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

It's true egglike; Dr. Satan exists, and we're all about to meet him.

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790
Green Cadet
790
Posts: 448
Registered: ‎02-05-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

signs picked apart:

1. Exuberant nationalism

: " Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic images, slogans and symbols National flags are seen everywhere in public display" - Perhaps they do, and how many flags and patriotic images do you see everyday? That's right I can't count them here in america on one hand. So this statement doesn't apply to us. What about WW2 and other 'great' wars? All the talk of riding comunism and posters ect. of that particular war was definitly more prevailiant than now.

"Territorial aggression is explained to be mere destiny -- an unbidden greatness thrust upon the nation by history." - when has the us conquered anyone? I hate that we police the world, but I'm glad it's us that have the power and are doing it the right way and giving ppl back power over thier governments. Perhaps iraq or N. korea shouldve gained great power thru history and our rolls would be reversed now, wouldn't that be nice.

"It is this burden of unique responsibility that now raises the fascist state above all previous constraint, no longer bound by international obligations, treaties or law." - I guess some people would rather have the UN, an organization made up of everyone else in the world (who are already jelease) an organization that WE created and fund, tell us what to do after bieng bombed here in the us.

2. Enemies Identified

: "This national cause is identified as unity against enemies - The people are rallied around a unifying patriotism directed against some common threat: communists, liberals, a racial, ethnic or religious minority, intellectuals, homosexuals, terrorists, etc. " - This list of items suggests a comparison. I hardly think you can compare the common theme of intellectuals the that of mad fools that blow themselves up to kill as many people as possible.

The last sentence of this sign is filler.

3. Rights Disappear

: "Disdain for human and political rights - Fascist regimes foster an artificial climate of fear by intentionally amplifying .... The public often looks away, or even enthusiastically approves as rights are stripped away. " - maybe a picture of bill clinton should be on this sign, we surely lost more rights under his admin. (gun laws)

4. Secrecy Demanded

: "Obsession.. areas of scrutiny are placed out of bounds by simply invoking "national security" - I guess you must be refering to the womd's that werent' in sudi arabia. - Because we all believe that a madman wouldn't persue those or attempt to hide them in hundreds of miles of desert where they could be easily found.

Hope everyone gets the idea, I don't want to write a research paper tonight.

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Black Ops
Egglick
Posts: 8,483
Registered: ‎01-28-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism


790 wrote:
I can't believe you were allowed to post this total bullshIt
Right there, in the first sentence of your first response was a giant neon sign that anything you have to say should be taken with a grain of salt.

The First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference. Freedom of expression consists of the rights to freedom of speech, press, assembly and to petition the government for a redress of grievances, and the implied rights of association and belief.

First off, we can obviously see that you don't agree with the First Amendment of the Constitution, or Freedom of Speech. Our founding fathers had a clear vision of how they wanted this country not to be, which is why they added things such as the Bill of Rights, and Checks and Balances for the different branches of government. You see, they knew all too well the ways that tyrannical governments work.....freedom from the sorts of things we're starting to see today is the very reason that those men fought and died, and the basis which this nation was founded on.


People need to be able to openly critisize the Government without fear of reprocussions if things start taking a turn for the worse, which is what I have done.

Keep the arguments coming....I enjoy a good civil conversation. Don't forget that just because I'm strongly opposed to Bush and many Republican policies, that doesn't automatically make me a Democrat. I don't agree 100% with either side, and I don't feel the need to shape my opinions and views to fit them. I'm Egg (at least to you guys), and I make my own decisions.

Attacking the Democratic party means little to me.
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webdev511
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎11-08-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

[ Edited ]

790 wrote:

maybe a picture of bill clinton should be on this sign, we surely lost more rights under his admin. (gun laws)


I guess you didn't read the USA Patriot Act either. Of course how could you or any of our Congressmen or Senators HAVE any time since it was printed at 3:45 am the same day it was passed at 11 am. The Bill that the House went to sleep on was approved by 36 out of 36 members of the House Judiciary Committee on October 23rd. When they came back it was a different BILL. They didn't even get time to read the acutal bill they passed, that despite the effort of many congressmen on both sides demanding the time to do so.

If Assault weapons are so important to you ...Enlist.
If you think it's okay to invade a country based on cherry picked information ...Enlist.
If you think it's okay to violate the Geneva Conventions while claiming the "moral high ground" ...Enlist.

I did my 10 years in the Military.
I defened the Constitution of the United Sates against all Enemies, Foreign and Domestic
I gave up my right to free speech during my enlistment. (yes, you give some of your Constitutional Rights when you take the oath of enlistment.)

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and...ENLIST?

Message Edited by webdev511 on 11-08-2004 08:00 AM

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feisty_cadaver
Posts: 40
Registered: ‎02-01-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

This post pretty much sums up the things that I've been concerned about in this country for quite some time.  It's not about being a "sore loser" over the elections, or deliberately singling Bush's regime out for it's indiscretions.  What it's really about is the fact that I agree with what this post mentions from a bipartisan angle.  Yes, I voted for Kerry.  Yes, I think Bush and his administration are the wrong people for the job.  Yes, I am deathly afraid of a government that aggressively pursues it's own idealogical agenda based on a misguided religious stance.  And yes, I love my country, which is why I'm still here working to change things.  I could listen to other folks who say that because I have dual Canadian citizenship that "if I don't like it here then I should just get out," but you know what?  America was built as a country for everyone, not just the ones that share the same faith, as it was in Europe a few years ago, and that's exactly how I want it to stay.  So, I'm willing to fight for what I believe in and work to change things.  I'm not a republican or a democrat.  I just want to live in a country I can be proud of again, and to say that my father and his father fought for something worth keeping.  America, as it is today, with it's "with us or against us" all or nothing attitude, it's blatant discrimination against homosexuals and focus on hypocritical "moral values" based upon some idea of "God," and it's utterly blind eye towards the preservation of the environment and the world around us is NOT the country I can be proud of.  In fact, it's the kind of nation that, if I were on the outside looking in, I would be very afraid of living in.  Yes, there is all sorts of opportunity in the "land of the free."  Opportunity to become individually wealthy.  Opportunity to rise to positions of power and push one's agenda on everyone else that doesn't share the same faith.  Opportunity to alienate the rest of the world by taking some sort of bullshit "moral high road."  Opportunity to get top notch education and spend the rest of your days working for huge corporations that build bigger and better weapons.  Opportunity to vote against any social reforms that might make this country, and the world around us, a better place for everyone.  There are plenty of opportunistic people here in America, but not very many responsible ones.  It's much easier after all, to take advantage of opportunities when the responsibility of a society is constantly left to someone else.  Yeah, this post is entirely editorial, and I accept that.  I'm not trying to prove or debunk egglick's post.  I'm just like everyone else I suppose.  These are my opinions and my thoughts contributed to the whole.  The freedom to share ideas and discuss them in a public forum was, I thought anyway, one of the primary rights and responsibilities of being an American.  For the record though, that's one helluva good post egglick!  Hear, hear!!
Delta Force
Trogdor
Posts: 11,505
Registered: ‎01-07-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

I take the counter opinion from Feisty, which is no surprise. I'm *proud* to live in America and for what it stands. Intolerance? How is not redefining the concept of marriage to allow homosexual relationships intolerance? You are not prevented in any meaningful way from living your life as you so choose. The problem is that homosexuals want public recognition for their life style. I guess the government should also give special privileges to porn stars, movie stars, people that want to marry their pets, etc.

What's ironic about the whole debate is that the people who support such views invariably belittle religion. It's wrong for religion to have the view that homosexuality (or some other topic) is morally destitute, but it's okay for people to belittle religious types as being stupid or superstitious. Anyone else see a contradiction? The "with us or against us" attitude is being taken by *BOTH* sides.

I attend church regularly. That is my right, and the fact that I am religious should in no way prevent me from seeking public office or anything else. You know what? It doesn't - other than the intellectuals and Liberals who would oppose any strongly religious person (i.e. Bush). Bush is not requiring anyone to become Christian or even religious, but he is obviously a religious man. Does it matter what he believes?

On the flipped side, what about a homosexual man - is he prevented from seeking public office by any law? Nope, not that I'm aware of. He may not be allowed to get legally married, but you don't have to be married to run for office. Sure, there will be plenty of religious types that disagree with this person's views on life, and they will oppose him. I know I would. That is my right, just like it is the right of intellectuals to oppose religious types. (Being an intellectual is not exclusive to being religious, incidentally - most of history's greatest scientists have been religious.)

It's the same as deciding not to vote for a guy in your neighborhood because he takes his dog out for a walk every morning and has it shit on my lawn, or maybe he used to date your wife before you got married; perhaps you just find him ugly. You can "discriminate" against people when voting for whatever petty reason you choose. Only in the business world is such discrimination illegal. That's the way it is and that's the way it should remain.

As for what is happening in Iraq, it has a lot less to do with religious beliefs - i.e. Christian vs. Muslim - than it does with terrorism, human rights, and basic decency. If you think that Christianity is too powerful a force in the US right now, how would you like to go back to the Dark Ages and live in Spain during the time of the Inquisition? I have had family members that lived in the Middle East for a few years - in the most progressive of the countries, the United Arab Emirates. You know what they said? Tolerance for other ideas over there is very low, and it can be dangerous to be a non-Muslim. In the other countries of the Middle East, it is far worse. Somewhere else, I read a statement that many of the Muslim nations are having their own Inquisition right now. I am fine with people willingly choosing to be Muslim - or any other religion, for that matter, even homosexuality - but no one should be compelled to believe one way or another.

We are not forcing Christianity on the people. We are fighting against those that are a threat to the world. I'm perfectly okay with people continuing to believe what they want, as long as those beliefs do not involve the wholesale slaughter of others. We are not trying to kill off Iraqis (or others) that simply disagree with US politics and western philosophy in general; we are trying to take out the forces that were slaughtering millions of their own people to stay in power. Imagine Bush actually tearing down non-Christian churches and arresting people that do not believe in Jesus Christ. That has been going on in Iraq and several of the other countries for a long time, only replace "Jesus Christ" with "Mohammad."

Finally, when we look at the US and the problems that we are having right now, what is the fundamental flaw? We have problems in the schools, youth violence keeps getting worse - maybe not in quantity, but in the severity of the incidents - lying, stealing, infidelity are all running rampant. What is the fundamental cause of all of this? I would say that it is the lack of family values. Parents do not care for their children - they depend on help from the government to feed them, and even then they spend far more time watching TV than playing with their kids or teaching them. You don't need to be religious to raise your family well, but the basic tenets of any religion - don't steal, kill, lie, etc. - should be taught no matter what. If you disagree, please, do me a favor and leave this country. I'll allow different beliefs, but anyone that lacks basic respect for others deserves none from me.

I'll also risk raising the ire of others by stating that pornography (and homosexuality, although I'll just leave that out) weakens such teachings, as is based in satisfying carnal instincts. Giving in to lust purely for the sake of the pleasure makes man little better than animals. You can't expect people to be good parents if the only reason that they have children is because they were **bleep**ing each others' brains out and in a fit of passion they forgot to use any common sense or protection. I got married because I loved another person, and my wife and I had a baby because we wanted to be parents. Acting without thinking is what leads to abortions, and pornography leads to such a lack of thought. I would also say that pornography is every bit as addictive and harmful as any drugs out there.

When/if you get married, chances are very good that your spouse will *NOT* be anything like a porn star, and if you're looking for that, you're just going to be severely disappointed (and add one more divorce to the statistics). It's not about guilt, people - it's about knowing what is normal and what is not. Dreaming about becoming a Hollywood movie star has ruined plenty of careers, and dreaming about a spouse that likely doesn't exist will diminish your chances of ever having a successful relationship.

Flame away! :smileyhappy:

[Note: this is not an attack against any person. It is a statement of my beliefs and opinions on society. In fact, it really has little to do with the "fascism" topic. Oh, well. Sorry.]
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Black Ops
Egglick
Posts: 8,483
Registered: ‎01-28-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Geez....thanks for turning this into a religious topic Trog. That was not my intention at all. It's my belief that people can openly follow whatever religion they like (the President included) so long as they don't try to impose those beliefs on others. I also feel that marrige is a religious doctrine, and being such, the government shouldn't be performing, or have any sayso in this.

You and I both know that there isn't a church in the country that's going to marry a gay couple. As long as the government is performing marriages though, I feel they have a right to it. It doesn't affect anyone else, therefore other people have nothing to say about it. If the government wasn't overstepping it's bounds, it wouldn't be a problem. End of story.


You never clearly came out and said it, but the "We should have gone to Iraq because the people there had it bad" argument is a very poor one. There are many many many people in other parts of the world in worse situations than the Iraqis were in. Take a look at the people of Africa, with millions of children dying, corrupt governments, and genocide happening all the time, but the US turns a blind eye to it. What about places like Haiti, where rebels are overthrowing the corrupt government, and the people are starving and homeless from all the hurricanes that went through??

I think the US offered them some insulting amount of aid, like $40,000. That's just TERRIBLE.
Delta Force
Trogdor
Posts: 11,505
Registered: ‎01-07-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Sorry, Egg. Won't happen again.

The stuff about other nations is certainly valid, but last I checked Haiti didn't pose any threat to the world. Yes, the "threat" in Iraq is suspect, but the threat from that region in general is not. Where are the vast majority of terrorists located? Why? I *think* (and freely admit this could be wrong) that a decision was made to use Iraq as a launching point for several reasons:

First, I think that there was some bad intelligence work involved. Millerboy and others would probably blame it on the Israeli influence in the US gov't, but regardless I think that there was serious belief that Iraq was in the process of acquiring WMDs. Also, having not found any evidence so far does not really mean anything. The terrorist groups that would really like these weapons had ample warning and could have moved them. We may never know for sure.

Second, I believe that the current administration - post 9/11 - sees terrorism as a huge threat. Well, the WTC bombings really weren't that bad in comparison to what *could* have happened with even one WMD. We never want anyone to use WMDs again, right? Terrorists have nothing to lose. You could argue that N. Korea has WMDs and has made no point in trying to hide the fact. N. Korea doesn't have any religious friends like Iraq (i.e. terrorists) - at least, I don't think they do. If the excuse for going into Iraq was bad, there was no way we could have ever done anything in N. Korea. You have to pick your battles.

Third, and this is definitely the most distasteful aspect, I'm sure the oil factor played a part in the decision. There are destabilizing influences at work in that area of the world right now, and it provides a large amount of our oil. Yeah, we could find alternative sources, but we would rather use their sources up first. We're ass-holes like that. Incidentally, I need to look into getting myself a car that can run on 100% bio-diesel. That would be cool.

The big problem is businesses and large corporations having too much influence on government. I just hope that #3 was less of a reason than the other two. :smileyindifferent:
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790
Green Cadet
790
Posts: 448
Registered: ‎02-05-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

webdev511- What on earth are you talking about?
 
egglick- I admit the language is uncalled for in a civilized debate, however I was pissed and felt like venting some frustration.
 
As far as amendments go, I do agree with them, ect.  Just got tired of reading false claims so I made the first post.  Take everything I say as a grain - For that matter, don't take it at all. 
 
I still have to read trogdors rather lengthy posts, but they look interesting!

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Sharpshooter
no dice
Posts: 5,306
Registered: ‎05-16-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

Well i think we all know who egglick supported in the election. :smileyhappy:
Conscript
Firing Squid
Posts: 10
Registered: ‎04-08-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

"no longer bound by international obligations, treaties or law", nor honesty, accountability, truthfulness, selflessness, intelligence, ethics or morality.  That's pretty much the weather report!  It just makes me want to send a case of pretzels to the President, I wonder if that's illegal now?
Regular Infantry
Posts: 1,547
Registered: ‎09-21-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

[ Edited ]
I feel sorry for the Americans with there eyes open. I wonder how far you can push a people intil they do somthing about it.

Edit : I mean...all the bills get passed though and not many people agree with them, but more and more get pushed though. I just pondering what can get done, i didnt want to sound like i would want to see some kind of revolution and a overthrow of the current american goverment..........lol, im kiddin.


Message Edited by kyecoo on 04-08-2005 05:30 AM

Regular Infantry
In-Tel
Posts: 1,739
Registered: ‎01-07-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

For anyone to try to turn a Democratic system in to Fascim would be a very very long shot. It's a one way street.
 
I wouldn't worry about it. No point worrying anyways, cuz it is just one of many consiparcy theory people(with time to waste) spring up with everyday.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Sharpshooter
no dice
Posts: 5,306
Registered: ‎05-16-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

I tell you what, I'll find 12 signs of communism and put some kerry pictures on that. What do ya say?
Black Ops
Egglick
Posts: 8,483
Registered: ‎01-28-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

[ Edited ]

In-Tel wrote:
For anyone to try to turn a Democratic system in to Fascim would be a very very long shot. It's a one way street.

I wouldn't worry about it. No point worrying anyways....
Naa, no need to worry at all. Everything I see with my eyes must not be true. Denial is fun!

Hey In-tel, I think you need to crack open your history book and take a look at what was going in in Germany in the mid-late 1930's. You'll see some frightening similarities to what's going on here today. They were also a Democratic nation, but I guess nobody bothred to read the "One Way" street signs.

To blindly trust authority is to be a complete fool. Do you think they have YOUR best interests in mind? What makes you think that the leaders and laws are always going to be good?

Do you think that anyone in Germany, Japan, or anyone else truely thought they were the bad guys?? Do you think they woke up and said "We're the bad guys!! Today I want to fight and die for the bad side."

Why don't you actually read the post and put an ounce of thought into it, rather than just turning your head and saying "nope, could never happen here".

Message Edited by egglick on 04-08-2005 08:18 PM

Regular Infantry
pweber5
Posts: 1,392
Registered: ‎03-29-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism



no dice wrote:
I tell you what, I'll find 12 signs of communism and put some kerry pictures on that. What do ya say?



I would like to see it.
Regular Infantry
In-Tel
Posts: 1,739
Registered: ‎01-07-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism



egglick wrote:
Naa, no need to worry at all. Everything I see with my eyes must not be true. Denial is fun!

Hey In-tel, I think you need to crack open your history book and take a look at what was going in in Germany in the mid-late 1930's. You'll see some frightening similarities to what's going on here today. They were also a Democratic nation, but I guess nobody bothred to read the "One Way" street signs.

To blindly trust authority is to be a complete fool. Do you think they have YOUR best interests in mind? What makes you think that the leaders and laws are always going to be good?

Do you think that anyone in Germany, Japan, or anyone else truely thought they were the bad guys?? Do you think they woke up and said "We're the bad guys!! Today I want to fight and die for the bad side."

Why don't you actually read the post and put an ounce of thought into it, rather than just turning your head and saying "nope, could never happen here".

Message Edited by egglick on 04-08-2005 08:18 PM


My first impression when I saw your 12 signs was that it sounded awfully familuar to people that saw certain things that matchs certain other things in coincidental fashion and then blowing it up.  I really do think you need way more than 12 signs to say we are heading towards fascism with high probability +50%. I'd gauge, your probability to around 5% truth, which is quite a lot if you're thinking with the 12 signs you've just said. But nothing to worry about because the system is just way too hard to over come. The american political system has too many safe guards in place to twart this type of change. Which is a change for the worse... which is even harder.


 

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Conscript
OrionCA
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎04-11-2005

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism

*Chuckle* I always get a kick out of this list. It describes most parents to the letter. Or your employer. Or your church. The fact is, almost anyone in a position of authority can be called a "fascist" using this list.
Black Ops
Egglick
Posts: 8,483
Registered: ‎01-28-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism


OrionCA wrote:
*Chuckle* I always get a kick out of this list. It describes most parents to the letter. Or your employer. Or your church. The fact is, almost anyone in a position of authority can be called a "fascist" using this list.


Interesting point, and I wasn't aware of how widespread this list is. Actually, I wasn't aware that parents, teachers, or churches to have a military, corporations, elections, or a media either. Did your authority figures also display rampant sexism and a distain for intellectuals?

Actually...*chuckle*....now that I look at it again, it's nearly impossible to relate anything listed to what you've said, no matter how much you try to twist the meaning.

What the hell are you talking about?? Did you even bother to read the post, or did you just look at the pretty pictures and make an assumption?



*Chuckle*
Regular Infantry
pweber5
Posts: 1,392
Registered: ‎03-29-2004

Re: 12 Warning Signs of Fascism



egglick wrote:

OrionCA wrote:
*Chuckle* I always get a kick out of this list. It describes most parents to the letter. Or your employer. Or your church. The fact is, almost anyone in a position of authority can be called a "fascist" using this list.


Interesting point, and I wasn't aware of how widespread this list is. Actually, I wasn't aware that parents, teachers, or churches to have a military, corporations, elections, or a media either. Did your authority figures also display rampant sexism and a distain for intellectuals?

Actually...*chuckle*....now that I look at it again, it's nearly impossible to relate anything listed to what you've said, no matter how much you try to twist the meaning.

What the hell are you talking about?? Did you even bother to read the post, or did you just look at the pretty pictures and make an assumption?



*Chuckle*

A ha ha ha! He's going to regret registering to make that one post after he reads that! Hilarious! :smileyvery-happy:

Seriously though, what the hell was he reading?

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